Author Topic: TH17-19 Music Discussion  (Read 1121 times)

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williewillus

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TH17-19 Music Discussion
« on: March 26, 2025, 06:17:46 AM »
Taking up CyberAngel's challenge from this post.

Going to be splitting a reply per game, one per day. Starting off with....

Touhou 17

Title Theme: Silent Beast Spirits
I still remember when the demo came out I was so surprised by this theme I stayed on the menu to listen to it twice before jumping into the game. It starts off dark and the layers build on top of each other well. Then you get the little piano jingle and you drop into this little "mysterious" and even more sinister sounding part, then it breaks in to the main theme of eastern story chorus. This is one of my favorite title themes in the series.

Stage 1: A Grief only Known by Jizo
Spooky Lead and the choir gives this a very lonely, desolate feeling. I love the meandering emotion that comes up during the midboss section. There's a Chinese word 彷徨, which roughly means "wandering", "to not know where to go" that I feel that section captures perfectly.

Eika: Jelly Stone
Rapid spooky lead is fun, though I actually don't like this theme as much as some other people do.

Stage 2: Lost River
The highlight of this track is the main melody that starts when the midboss enters (0:54) and also at the climax (1:30). The time signature being in-3 gives me "rowing a boat along the Sanzu River towards the afterlife" vibe.

Urumi: The Stone Baby and the Submerged Bovine
Idk what exactly the instrument is, but the low one that's there in the bass from the start is so meaty and...thicc. Idk how else to put it lol. Also the lead instrument at 0:17 literally sounds like a cow mooing, which I guess is what ZUN was going for.

Stage 3: Everlasting Red Spider Lily
So the gameplay in this stage is ass, but the main melody loop is catchy and earworms you pretty well when you're playing through the 100th aimed pattern in the stage.

Kutaka: Seraphic Chicken
The rhythm of this tracks seems all over the place at first (esp at 1:12 and when he stacks more on top at 1:42) but it gives the feeling of a chicken running around so well, I love it.

Stage 4: Unlocated Hell
Was "shook" when I entered this stage for the first time in the full demo. It goes hard with the guitar, and I like how it's contrasted with almost pleasant-sounding piano in the verse at 0:57. My favorite part of this track is the lead up to the midboss drop (1:50-2:05), you get this triumphant trumpet verse, then ZUN blends it with the piano from the first part of the track and it just works.

Yachie: Tortoise Dragon
Actually probably one of my least favorite tracks in the game, contrary to popular opinion it seems lol. The rhythm's nice I guess?

Stage 5: Beast Metropolis
Super strong piano melody, but the bass and percussion keeps the "beast/hell" vibes going. The wistful mood at 0:42 is great, and the track carries that forward at 1:06 going into and past the midboss into the key change.

Mayumi: Joutonin of Ceramics
The climax triplets at 0:47 are great and give me a bit of a "pirates of the Caribbean" vibe

Stage 6: Electric Heritage
Disco party to the final showdown, the theme. People pick on ZUN for reusing the boss theme in the stage theme in recent games, but it's different enough here that I don't mind. Midboss section (0:35) gives me the feeling of flying above a war-torn battlefield on the way to the final mastermind

Keiki: Idolatrize World
Instant classic in the series when it came out and not for no reason. Epic-style opening, classical ZUN piano melody, add in guitar in the second verse. Throwback to the stage theme on the build up to the climax then let the ZUNpets rip. The continued climax adds extra brass underneath which enriches the melody quite a bit. Eventually, you get TOES to reinforce more of the "epic" feeling, which he weaves into the loop pretty masterfully.

Extra: Shining Law of the Strong Eating the Weak
(possible) Toccata and Fugue reference = love. I also love the trumpet leaps at the climax (2:16), it gives the track a very majestic and almost uplifting mood.

Saki: Prince Shoutoku's Horse
The theme overall is very prancy, and the brass at 1:54 gives off the mood of a horse neighing really well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2025, 06:34:01 AM by williewillus »

Suspicious person

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2025, 04:12:19 PM »
Hmmm, contemporary Touhou music discussions and analysis are ones that don't typically pop up, and as someone who is a bit opinionated and quite in favor of Touhou 17 especially, I wanna get in too. I've always been reserved when it comes to making musical analysis due to limitations pertaining to the relevant linguo plus lack of ability to distinguish the exact time signatures, but here goes :

First of all, regarding ZUN's game music, they're generally made in a way where they match specific parts of the stage (start of the stage, midboss, end of stage) AND even be arranged in a way where it capture a particular kind of mood (a rather clear objective in Touhou 17, whose motifs leans heavily into Hell and the afterlife), while in the boss themes he tries to capture certains aspects related to the boss (his reasoning for making the music such or such way can be read in his comments in the music room).

So with that in mind, here's my analysis of the stages themes for Touhou 17 first of all :

Stage 1 theme : This is Sai no Kawara. Pretty much the dead children's Limbo (heavy stuff normally), with a twist. The song opens with this weird harpsichord-like sounding instrument (not sure what the name is exactly), with strange choirs going on in the background, even bells-like instruments towards the middle : very eerie, it might as well say "haunted place". However, as we reachto the middle part of the song, Eika pops up. Choirs shut down. The squeaky instrument that played before gets more and more highkey (like I said, I'm not big on music linguo) and therefore more hopefull, less dark. This is Children's Limbo, the ghost of dead children wander about and spend their afterlife in penance, trying to pointlessly stack stones that get knocked up, yet Eika has turned the whole process into a game and a competition : the place is therefore not as sad and depresing as it should have been, but carries a bit of hope and joy, and the song reflects that before things quiet down as it prepares to loop

Stage 2 theme : The Sanzu River, basically a physical border between this world and the next. There are only the spirits who didn't reach Higan as well as creatures from more ancient era here, a friendless place where we're lost in and try to stumble or way through. The beeping instrument and the muffled ZUNpet, the repeatitiveness of it all, there's a sense of oprression as you're lost in the vast expanse of the Sanzu river ... then, boom, full stop, some semblance of normalty as we finally meet a normal(?) ish person, our potential clue towards our main goal, but then she's already gone, and we're back to the vast and uncomfortable quietude of the Sanzu River ... I like to think of the music sounding more and more clear as we reach the end of stage as symbolizing the end of our wandering about.

Stage 3 theme : Higan. Essentially the waiting room for those who are awaiting judgement for the Touhou verse. Vast expanse of red spider lillies as the eye can see, but despite this beauty, there's no life to be found. A quiet and eerie place, with nothing but ominous flowers and spirits to its name. The bells from the intro get absorbed by the main melody, where its just pleasant background noise for the muffled ZUNpet instrument, and as we reach the mid boss, where we not only get proper ZUNpets like usual, but the bells play a different tune too, a break from the monotony of Higan, before returning to business as usual. A quiet, muffled song yet with a beauty that's supported by the bells, which capture the loneliness and emptiness of Higan, yet in spite of all that, we still have the odd encounter to break the initial impression.

All in all, the first three stage from the demo are fairly eerie, capture emptiness end solitude, and the quietude provided by the muffled ZUNpet (or whatever the damn instrument's name is) as well as a generally slow pace (dunno the exact time signature but they're obviously slow and quiet sounding) are quite likely how ZUN conceives Touhou's afterlife and its empty quietude.

Stage 4 : Hell. Finally, and for real. No more melancholic nonsense, none of that corny beauty crap, it's Hell and you're gonna feel it. You're greeted by a harsh tune in the intro, a massive contrast with all the previous songs, yet there's still a bit of uncertainty with those deep pianos notes in the intro, as it builds up and up into a surprisingly relaxed melody : has the reality of it finally settled in ? We know whaat's up as the relaxed piano get absorbed into harsher ZUNtars. Yet it's not enough, we have a goal that we're searching for, more build up is necessary as we further our search, then boom, mid boss section, the first real clue towards our search, climax of the song as we dive back into the hail of bullets, there's no quiet piano anymore, only high key notes, the confidence with which we're comingfor the confrontation and the resolution of incident.

Stage 5 : Beast Metropolis. An unheard before and completely alien world, with very different value from ours. It's an actual dog eat dog, where beasts exploits beasts, and the weakest creatures of all has little choice but try to make themselves smaller in the little space given to them ... a dystopia where each and everyone is a ressource. The entire place is filled with massive skyscrapers, but beneath the pompousness of it all, the sad reality : it's not a good place to be. The slow, quiet melancholic piano tunes we get in the earlier parts of the song, captures the misery of the human spirits. But then the tempo accelerates : drums get more and more loud : it's the usual buildup towards the midboss, and guess what, it's a Haniwa ! The solution towards the sheer misery of the Human Spirits, the idols they pray for and who will vanquish the vile beasts for them, before the quietude again. Is it this quietude the return to normalcy under the beast spirits or the new Haniwa overlords ? It's not sure, but one things remain certain : it's still the Animal Realm, and it's not a good place to be ...

Stage 6 : No real impressions here, just your standard fare buildup to epicness. The song itself has parts of the final boss's theme, and as you get to the mid boss section, things relatively quiet down (but it's still part of the boss's theme). Theme of Eastern story plays as you blast your way through the silly human spirits who clearly forgot their place, meaningless distraction before the final confrontation.

Extra stage : same impression as stage 4 here overall, agressive percussion straight at the beginning in lieu of the agressive guitars, but still an agressive use of an instrument that captures the essence of Hell. It's the hell we've grown to be familiar with (we're back again), and the song overall feels less aggressive and forcceful than stage 4's aside from the more forcefull ZUNpets we get as we face the midboss, but it's more welcoming now. But we reach the end of the song and the harsh ZUNpets returns to remind you that this place is still Hell and of the threat that you're about to face ...



All in all, a relatively dramatic interpretation of the songs paired with understanding of the presented world this time. I've always considered Touhou 17's stage themes to be among the best when it comes to setting the atmosphere. Definitely quite a few ways away from SA's interpretation of Hell, where we have the adventurousness of spelunking in stage 1, the mystery and loneliness of stage 2, the festiveness of stage 3, the fanciness of Heartfelt Fancy, the loneliness and emptiness of stage 5, and the menace and bravery of stage 6. Touhou 17 tells a concise story based in the afterlife and in Hell, with undertones rooted in a dystopian form of modern society ... the instrumentation is also quite different from other titles, making Touhou 17's OST pretty interesting and unique, but probably heavy on the instruments-that-makes-it-sound-lonely on one side, and the very memorable harshness of Hell on the other



As for the characters themes, they're primarily about trying to encompass parts of the essence of characters. Therefore, my impression of them is so :

Eika's theme : the ingenious spirit who transformed Sai no Kawara's penance into a pleasant game, but no mistake here, she's got a bit of an attitude to show for those who try to cause trouble here. It's a song that tries to puff itself with a strong ZUNtar intro + ZUNriffs, but despite all that bravado, it's shows itself for what it truly is, in the cutsy repeatitive main part of the song : really just a little girl.

Urumi's theme : a weight manipulating cow-spider youkai. It sounds slow and dragged on, with suspicious instruments that try to emulate the Moo from the animals she's primarily based off. But despite the terror of the place you fight her with and her true nature, the slowness of the song reveals her for what she truly is : just a laid back youkai, quite eager to help us, possibly to break away from the monotony

Kutaka's theme : no real comment here, but it captures the liveliness of the chickens she stands for rather than any qualities / traits she has herself. A very hectic song, quite the discrepancy considering the sheer calmness of the previous stage 3 song. Chickens generally have a warm color, are associated with the sun, give the eggs you eat in the morning as well as greet the sunrise : they're very bright and cheerful creatures, and the sheer loudness and fast pace of the song captures them quite well

Kicchou's theme : one of the weirder themes. It's got like two distincts melodies, an aggressively beeping one that tries to aggrandize itself with these choirs and be threatening as when it gets faster, then, calm, slow whisttle-like instruments that keeps the insistant piano song after each time it plays ... then back to the beebing again but quieter, and then unto the whisttling. ZUN song climax typically have a lot of the previously used instruments make a return, but for her, the climax is ... quite quiet, not as loud as you'd expect of a ZUN climax, and retain the quiet, and urgent sounding tone it had previously ... all in all, a piece that doesn't grant the satisfaction of a grandiose climax but instead the pressure of one which give a sense of urgency. A relatively uncomfortable and oppressive piece, which lets you experience what feeling you'll have when confrontated by the boss of the Kiketsu Family, irresistible and insidious.

Mayumi's theme : comes off strong and slow, it's not scared or need to make a point. It's here, stalwart, and quite menacing as the guitars and beat combos come, and show it's rigidity in how its more rhythmic sections are consigned in very specific parts of the song. Highly rigid and almost mechanical, but beneath that, the bravery and resilience of the Haniwa corps : it's not afraid to get loud, to show you it's got teeth. A militaristic theme that's quite dignified in its quietude.

Keiki's theme : the craftsman god who reshaped the Beast Realm, one clay doll at a time. About as grandiose as you'd expect of, the piano just capture the glory and the greatness of such a respectable being, it's a song that's completely isolated from the struggle of the human spirits and the grudges of the animal spirits : it's pretty clear and loud, the ZUNpet gets pretty loud as it wants to sing eulogies towards her greatness, and the theme of Eastern story come around as a bonus to tell you that this is of importance. ZUN style climax is back here, it's a final boss theme-like final boss theme. Dunno what to really say here, but's it's quite a grand theme overall. No attempt to show quiet dignity like for Kanako, no reformed goddess-that-walks-among-us relaxed vibes like for Suwako, she's a major god who doesn't carry any baggage but just displays what she can do to its maximum.

Kurokoma's theme : a brave and bold sounding opening, it continues into a slow and cool, wild-west like fashion, then full stop : it gets slower. Quieter. Deeper. Darker. The piano slows down while the song gets more low key, and boom, it's back and really insistant on being low key ... and more menacing. Just like her theme, the leader of the Keiga family is a brave, bold and daring leader who is more than willing to handle the dirty deed herself, quite far from a saint. When the piano starts to slow down and you get more of those low keys, you figure it out : she's not one of the good guys. A theme that perfectly encapsulate her personality, it screams "villain" in the same vein as Seija's theme.


Overall, we still have ZUN's regular style where he set the mood with the music on one side, and tries to capture the characters on the other. Touhou 17's instrumentations is what make it stand aside from the previous games (every single one of which has their own unique vibes and instrumentation), and the insistence on fitting the mood for a Hell and afterlife game with dystopian undertones does trickle into the soundtrack imo. Games songs have a vague-ish intro before getting full blown, while music CDs can afford to have an ENTIRE track dedicated to being either the intro track of the final track with fitting mood. The lower points of the OST for me would be Urumi and Kicchou's themes, with potentially the stage 4 and extra ones with harsh instrumentations for me, but overall, I think ZUN succeeds at creating and capturing a particular kind of mood for this game.

Also no particularly big comment on the title screen, the ending screens theme, and the credits theme, just that the eerieness of the title screen (plus a relatively catchy start) makes it quite unique.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2025, 04:31:16 PM by Suspicious person »

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2025, 06:56:05 AM »
Touhou 18

Title: Rainbow-Crossed Gensokyo
The standard title theme. I like how the lead melody arcs up these really broad intervals which connects with the whole rainbow theming.

Stage 1: Shower of Strange Occurrences
ZUN's stage 1 themes never miss and this isn't an exception, the piano starts it off with a strong melody, while you have this almost EoSD stage 1-ish bass line throughout. The key change syncs with the background and gives you a wondrous "sunlight after the shower" feeling. I also like the little "pa-lings" the piano does at the top of each of its arpeggios, it's like raindrops pitter-pattering on the ground.

Mike: Kitten of Great Fortune
Short and sweet, the instrumentation is intentionally balanced and utilized to give "nyan nyan" vibes which is what it's supposed to do.

Stage 2: Cliff Hidden in Deep Green
If I had to pick a least favorite track over the previous few games it's probably this one. Not bad but not much to write about.

Takane: Banditry Technology
Also not much to write about, but this is one of the better ZUNtar melodies I think

Stage 3: Perpetual Snow of Komakusa Blossoms
I love this track. It's a major key, in a rare move for ZUN, and it's just a lovely and very singable melody. The final repetition of the main melody at the end of the stage (2:10-2:20) always gives me a really fuzzy, warm, and homely feeling inside. Which I guess doesn't really match all that well with the stage and plot, but it's more of a "I love Touhou" feeling.

Sannyo: Smoking Dragon
I think my favorite part of this track is the funky arpeggios in the background playing a riff on theme of eastern story. The TJD version makes this 30x better the original is still pretty good.

Stage 4: Abandoned Industrial Remains
I absolutely love the flamenco-style guitars in use. The flute also lends itself well to a feeling of "wind blowing through an abandoned mine". Overall it reminds me of something that you could play when on a nostalgic minecart tour of an abandoned mine.

Misumaru: Ore from the Age of the Gods
The climax (0:45) is balanced/mixed really well IMO, this would have been kind of a mess mixing wise if it were still DDC-era ZUN or before.

Stage 5: Long Awaited Oumagatoki
I am an absolute sucker for 5/4 tracks, but outside of that the main melody is really strong -- the way it reaches higher and higher, up to an octave each phrase, symbolizes the climbing of the mountain really well. The track then slowly develops into a fanfare under the stars during the final fairy formations at 2:25.

Megumu: Starry Mountain of Tenma
The repeated eighth notes in each measure of the melody are really nice, and lend the theme a very SNES-y retro vibe, which was what ZUN is going for.

Stage 6: Lunar Rainbow
The main verse gives HUGE PC98 vibes and I am all for it.

Chimata: Where is that Bustling Marketplace Now
Pretty controversial theme when it came out, and still somewhat dividing from what I can tell. To be honest, I didn't buy the theme fully either when it first came out, but I do understand better now the intended link between the theme and Chimata's character -- how it always tries to reach a climax but never really manages to do it, it's fighting hard for its life like Chimata herself is (and the world was, at the time of composition).
But one thing I do like is the "serious" part of it at 1:52, the percussion is tasty and the melody is catchy and balanced well.

Extra: Great Fantastic Underground Rail Network
My favorite extra theme in the series. It's in your face and intense with the guitar and chorus, but keeps the previous musical ideas from the mine by using the flute to drive the melody. The midboss section particularly epic -- it repeats the same musical idea twice for the first two midboss spells, and the second time (2:10) it holds the trumpet note in a fiery manner all the way to the phrase's conclusion into the third midboss spell, and onward into the almost trance-like loop as the gameplay reaches the post-midboss section.
There is so much to gush about with this track, it's my definite favorite in the game alongside Stage 3.

Momoyo: Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings
th18.mp4 ahem
Relatively arcadey style for ZUN, which makes sense given this entire character is a Mushihimesama in a CAVE reference. I like the "shiny and positive" main melody parts of the theme a lot, especially 1:47.

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2025, 02:08:59 AM »
Touhou 18.5

People really strawberries on this game's music but idk why, I like all of the tracks here a lot more than the VD tracks.

Title: The Collector's Melancholy Afternoon
Very laid back theme, I like the introduction a lot.

Early Stages: An Exciting and Familiar Gensokyo
I like the clarinetish instrument. The chorus at 1:05 as well as the buildup to it is nice.

Early Boss: Youkai Hook On
Pretty barebones with only one significant musical idea, but I like how frantic and prancy it is.

Middle Stages: Black Markets Can Happen Anywhere, Anytime
My favorite of the game, the second verse and key change section is absolutely amazing (1:50-2:36). My favorite of favorite is the descending synth "glitter" that leads up to the key change.

Strong Boss: Take Thy Danmaku In Hand, O Bulletphiles
I guess if I had to pick a least favorite track in this game, this would be it. Not bad, but not too special. The best part is the bare trumpet verse at 0:23.

Late Stages: The Hundredth Black Market
Primary melody is classical romantic and nostalgic ZUN. At times it feels wandering and lost, but it always finds its way back to the main melody -- perhaps symbolic of doujin culture and Touhou as a whole. I quite like this track and also how well it fits with the UM Stage 5 sunset background.

CyberAngel

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 11:42:35 PM »
Alright, thank you for taking me up on the offer. I'm open and genuinely curious about positive opinions on this, so keep them coming. Now, as I promised, I'll post my point of view as well. It won't be strictly negative but... I did warn you I don't hold back on criticism and opinions.

Touhou 17

My biggest issue with this game's soundtrack is what ZUN has done to percussion and guitar – too much distortion on both of them. Now, it's not something that came out of nowhere. Distorted percussion was used in TH16 pretty well, and actually started showing up in LoLK to a small degree. And distorted guitar has been a thing since DDC. But in this one ZUN definitely went with it overboard too much. To the point of making it so that listening to this soundtrack drives me physically sick at times (I even had to spread out writing this up over several days purely due to that). There are other problems I have here and there too, but I guess let's look at things in order.

Stage 1 - The Lamentations Known Only to Jizo

Okay, gotta give credit where credit is due – this is a nice theme. The main lead instrument is a bit unusual, and the part where it starts has all previous instruments still doing their own melodies, which sounds pretty messy as a result. But this is definitely a theme I remember with some fondness when thinking of the new game music. Still, it feels like it would be more fitting as a first theme in a scene-based side game. It has that Mystery in Your Town vibe.

Boss 1 - Jelly Stone

Aaand here's where things start falling apart and sounding like a mess. The lead instrument, which was used well to create the atmosphere in the stage theme, doesn't work well for rapid high notes it's used for in this one. It worked for zunpets but that doesn't mean it'll work for anything. I actually don't mind the bass grind 5 seconds in, it reminds me of DDC/ISC. But percussion "solo" at 33 seconds shows quite well why going with even more distortion was a bad idea.

Stage 2 - Lost River

Here's where dissonance comes in. Now, I actually appreciate music using that principle. One of my most favourite games is Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance and it uses music like that extremely well. So I can say that this theme actually manages to pull it off and create an appropriate atmosphere... at first, and probably by accident. Because when the bass at 1:30 kicks in, it becomes impossible to listen to. It doesn't even play any kind of melody, just random notes to the rhythm. Compare that to how the same kind of guitar is used in Romantic Escape Flight (especially at 1:28). For dissonance to work it actually has to be very specifically measured. This is just cacophony that takes me out of experience. Also it's here that the distorted percussion starts grating on my ears, when it's used rapidly and randomly.

Boss 2 - The Stone Baby and the Submerged Bovine

A competent theme that pulls off dissonance just fine. But what I get here is a vibe whiplash. Unlike the stage theme that has a pretty pleasant melody, this one doubles down on the gloom, and even the chorus sounds like a funeral tune. I feel ZUN tried and failed to pull off the same thing as in Dark Side of Fate and Green-Eyed Jealousy. The former, despite having a melody that conveys a feeling of despair, was still pretty exciting due to how fast it plays. The latter sounds pretty slow and tragic but has good intense percussion to keep you going. This theme, on the other hand, has such a depressive mood that it makes me just want to stop playing the game altogether. Not the kind of soundtrack you want at the start of a BULLET HELL.

Stage 3 – Everlasting Red Spider Lily

This theme is pretty smooth and even. WAY too smooth an even. Even chorus barely feels like it stands out. I think ZUN went for a PoFV vibe here. But I feel even blandest PoFV themes had more variance in them to keep things interesting. This one is just in one ear and out the other. The game sure could use something to shake up the player after the last fight's mood dampener (again, think of MoF and SA stage 3 starts), but this theme absolutely does not help.

Boss 3 - Seraphic Chicken

And then we have what I believe to be the best theme in the game. It has a strong melody that sounds fitting for an epic fight, and the chorus is especially heroic. It wouldn't sound out of place in a JRPG (if played by very different instruments). I don't really mind its weird time signature or how chaotic it can get. Sadly, it has a huge problem for me – it starts sounding too busy at times to the point of actually driving me nauseous. Too many instruments overlapping in high frequency range gives me a strange disorienting vertigo-like feeling. And the distorted bass constantly droning the same note in the background doesn't help things either. This theme represents the height of my disappointment with the new game soundtracks – even if the melody is something I can like, the problems I have with instruments can ruin all the fun.

Stage 4 - Unlocated Hell

The demo left me with pretty mixed and uncomfortable feeling about its music. So what does the first new stage in the full game start with? A segment where it's impossible to figure out the rhythm at all. Way to make the dizzying feeling of the previous track even worse. The track is pretty okay after that calms down though, even when the broken rhythm guitar chords come back because at least you do have other instruments rooting you in a stable rhythm this time. There is still a clash of instruments on high frequencies at times, but at least this time such moments are spaced out by nice and quiet ones. Still, the first impression alone sours the whole track for me. An even stable percussion would've fixed that easily.

Boss 4 - Tortoise Dragon ~ Fortune and Misfortune

Nice theme, there does seem to be some weirdness with the rhythm. Chorus melody almost feels like it's out of sync, but it flows adequately enough. However, this sounds pretty generic and low-key for such a supposedly important character. That's actually the same problem I have with Sagume's theme, so I guess ZUN tried to repeat whatever he tried to do there. But seriously, how does SOME RANDOM CHICKEN have a more epic theme than one of the leaders of the beast world?

Stage 5 - Beast Metropolis

Wow, this one sounds almost like an old Touhou theme. Like something that could come from UFO in particular. There's even zunpets playing the main melody at the end, instead of some weird new instrument. A decent, if a bit generic, track.

Boss 5 - Joutoujin of Ceramics

Ugh, this is where distorted percussion gets disgustingly loose. It's literal brown noise at times. But besides that the theme is nice, good usage of the weird rhythms. And the melody at 0:46 sounds pretty epic, kind of like a JRPG boss fare. There's just one problem I have with this one – complete mismatch with the character. No, ZUN, haniwas don't feel dangerous or scary, stop trying to give them that vibe.

Stage 6 - Electric Heritage

Busting out a new instrument for the final stage? Commendable, that gives it a unique atmosphere indeed. But this stands out so much that it becomes the point where I start asking, "Is this even Touhou anymore?"

Boss 6 - Entrust this World to Idols ~ Idolatrize World

As far as final boss themes go, this one is... unremarkable. The main melody is a bit too playful, and distorted guitar and percussion are too weak to give it the extra impact it needs. So rather than something fitting a final boss fight, this sounds more like a stage theme. So my opinion on this one is rather cold.

But then 1:31 and 3:13 happen...

Now, I did see arguments that the Theme of Eastern Story leitmotif is used plenty of times in Touhou music. I prefer to make a distinction between just a sequence of notes going up and down and ToES – the latter is a very specific note sequence and has short flairs after two or more up-down repeats. So what I would recognize as that leitmotif isn't used nearly as much as people might think.

The thing is, I kinda dislike leitmotif usage as a concept because it feels like a lazy and, what's worse, obvious creative shortcut. I have played games that used leitmotifs in their soundtracks too bluntly so their music just ended up blending together. But I also played games that used leitmotifs pretty creatively, so I wouldn't insist that it's always a bad thing. But I do believe that there needs to be a thematic significance behind the leitmotif for it to not feel used wrongly.

So where is Theme of Eastern Story used in most blatant ways? Mostly as the base for title and ending themes, which is understandable. In games themselves, the most notable place is IN stage 4, which is a rare instance where you fight Reimu so it's fitting. If you stretch it a bit, DDC stage 3 theme has a part sounding like it, which I would say gets a pass since it also takes place in bamboo forest and it's supposed to add to the nostalgia. Also Eirin's theme uses it as bridges, but that fight absolutely sells the cosmic importance of the events for Gensokyo.

Now look at this game's stage 6 and its boss. Not only does it have nothing to do with Reimu, or bamboo forest, or even Eirin. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gensokyo at all. This is where I finally asked myself: "Why is this in a Touhou game? Why are the usual heroines involved? Why should I care about any of this?" This moment is as far away from deserving the distinction of having THE leitmotif of Touhou as a series associated with it as possible. This was the moment when my faith in ZUN's creativity had completely shattered.

*insert Spoony BETRAYAL clip here*



...Well, that's enough for now. Will post my thoughts on the other games when I compile them.

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:00:29 AM »
Touhou 19

Gonna only do the original tracks because otherwise there'd be too many to talk about

Title: A Beast's Intelligence
The abrupt stops as the arpeggio reaches the top can be a little startling at first, but I think it works pretty well as a musical effect.

Earlygame & Reimu: The World Is Made in an Adorable Way
This was my favorite theme from the demo and one of my favorites in the whole game, though hearing it so many times in the early game can make it get old (RIP to people grinding LNN). As a Reimu song, it explores more of the "Adorable Shrine Maiden of Paradise" side of Reimu than her other themes.

Midgame & Marisa: Magical Beast Scramble
The introduction is a bit meh, but once it gets into it around 0:34 it's really nice. The percussion rhythm is tasty, and the melody is optimistic and adventurous just like Marisa.

Lategame & Suika: The Oni on the Perpetual Mountain
Alright I guess, the main melody is acceptable, though I think the mixing around 0:35 muddies the track a bit. Probably my least favorite original track in this game?

Biten: Tiny Shangri-La
Overall structure of the piano reminds me a lot of Touhou 17 Stage 5's theme. The erhu is really great too, my favorite part is 0:35, where he juxtaposes the long lyrical erhu phrases with individually-beated percussion underneath.

Enoko: A Brave and Leisurely Beast
The part at 0:23 is my favorite, it's brave and adventurous and reminds me of Marisa's theme from this game too, which maybe is intentional given their revealed relationship.

Chiyari: Vampiric Cryptid Chupacabra
Mischievous but also has that bit of usual ZUN romance. A weird combo but it works. My favorite part is the climax at 1:31, the lower piano is quite PCB in style.

Hisami: The Path to Yomi Where None Turn Back
UFO Stage 5 is that you? I'm not sure how to feel about this theme tbh, it's not that memorable but not that bad either.

Zanmu: The Deviants' Unobstructed Light ~ Kingdom of Nothingness.
Highlight of the game, with the new instruments and all. My favorite part is 2:03 at the drop, but not for the ZUNpets as much as it is for the piano countermelody underneath the trumpet and vocal. It's so classical ZUN, that piano countermelody and the chord progression sounds like something you'd hear in IN, like IN Extra or something.
This countermelody gets its own solo moment at 2:48 too.

Ending: The Beast Kings' Rest
Kind of a throwaway theme, not much to comment on

Staff: Do Beasts Have Intelligence?
The piano is spiffed up a bit which is nice, but it's obvious ZUN took the shortcut due to the work volume lol

williewillus

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Re: TH17-19 Music Discussion
« Reply #6 on: Today at 01:02:14 AM »
Alright, thank you for taking me up on the offer. I'm open and genuinely curious about positive opinions on this, so keep them coming. Now, as I promised, I'll post my point of view as well. It won't be strictly negative but... I did warn you I don't hold back on criticism and opinions.

See I think all your criticisms/opinions are pretty reasonable actually now that you've written it all out, it's just a bit hard for me to understand how that translates into such a visceral dislike for the tracks that you physically get sick of them :P